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	<title>Comments on: On Mundane SF</title>
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	<link>http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/</link>
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	<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:37:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: FutureNerd</title>
		<link>http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-13977</link>
		<dc:creator>FutureNerd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 05:29:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-13977</guid>
		<description>I think what old SF escaped from was a padded world.  This Mundane thing has me thinking about books I've liked and wondering whether old SF ideas really have become padding by now.

Rudy, you say, "I’ve always felt that SF is more like surrealism. The idea is to shock people into awareness."  My feeling is that SF takes you to unfamiliar territory and then rubs your nose in something, and the particular SF trippy zing effect happens because it's a &lt;i&gt;real&lt;/i&gt; something, however mapped.  Some connection to reality or realism-attitude gives the author a grip on your guts and your brain.

I'm not sure realism per se, relevance, responsibility and predicting the future are the right astringents, but still it's a scary question whether SF is imperceptibly or inadvertently giving up that particular grip, authority, magic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what old SF escaped from was a padded world.  This Mundane thing has me thinking about books I&#8217;ve liked and wondering whether old SF ideas really have become padding by now.</p>
<p>Rudy, you say, &#8220;I’ve always felt that SF is more like surrealism. The idea is to shock people into awareness.&#8221;  My feeling is that SF takes you to unfamiliar territory and then rubs your nose in something, and the particular SF trippy zing effect happens because it&#8217;s a <i>real</i> something, however mapped.  Some connection to reality or realism-attitude gives the author a grip on your guts and your brain.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure realism per se, relevance, responsibility and predicting the future are the right astringents, but still it&#8217;s a scary question whether SF is imperceptibly or inadvertently giving up that particular grip, authority, magic.</p>
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		<title>By: D.N.D.</title>
		<link>http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-12774</link>
		<dc:creator>D.N.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2007 14:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-12774</guid>
		<description>I agreed with a lot of what was siad on this blog. I am a mundane sympathizer, but I also write non-mundane sci fi. I also agree with PK Lentz in that "there's room for any number of sub-genres".

I would also like to clarify that nowhere do Mundaners say that FTL/aliens/AI is impossible, they just say its very unlikely. Overall, though, I think SF is about the fiction more than the science, and thats the way its always been. It's important to remember that its all just entertainment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agreed with a lot of what was siad on this blog. I am a mundane sympathizer, but I also write non-mundane sci fi. I also agree with PK Lentz in that &#8220;there&#8217;s room for any number of sub-genres&#8221;.</p>
<p>I would also like to clarify that nowhere do Mundaners say that FTL/aliens/AI is impossible, they just say its very unlikely. Overall, though, I think SF is about the fiction more than the science, and thats the way its always been. It&#8217;s important to remember that its all just entertainment.</p>
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		<title>By: PK Lentz</title>
		<link>http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10114</link>
		<dc:creator>PK Lentz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 21:50:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10114</guid>
		<description>Just came across this blog while searching out the debate on mundane SF, and really enjoyed the post.  I don't know if it's necessary to take sides, since IMO there's room for any number of sub-genres.  I've "committed" (as they say) mundane SF by accident rather than design, and submitted to their issue of IZ, but I personally wouldn't endorse any "manifesto" for writing.  Even if I made rules for myself, I'm sure I'd break them at least once.

One trap I don't think opponents of mundane SF should fall into is defending why FTL/aliens/AI etc *might* be possible.  That just lets the mundanes say, "Hey, look how wacky they are, talking about teleportation while we talk real science."  It doesn't matter if those things are plausible because, as is wisely noted here, SF isn't really about predicting the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just came across this blog while searching out the debate on mundane SF, and really enjoyed the post.  I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s necessary to take sides, since IMO there&#8217;s room for any number of sub-genres.  I&#8217;ve &#8220;committed&#8221; (as they say) mundane SF by accident rather than design, and submitted to their issue of IZ, but I personally wouldn&#8217;t endorse any &#8220;manifesto&#8221; for writing.  Even if I made rules for myself, I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;d break them at least once.</p>
<p>One trap I don&#8217;t think opponents of mundane SF should fall into is defending why FTL/aliens/AI etc *might* be possible.  That just lets the mundanes say, &#8220;Hey, look how wacky they are, talking about teleportation while we talk real science.&#8221;  It doesn&#8217;t matter if those things are plausible because, as is wisely noted here, SF isn&#8217;t really about predicting the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Kelson</title>
		<link>http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10102</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 04:01:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10102</guid>
		<description>Oh, just to throw a odd bit of synchronocity out there, but i threw Varèse's quote into google and find a vid, and sure enough, it's FZ mentioning pitchforks.  With what appears to be dutch subtitles.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMBNdDs-q4E</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, just to throw a odd bit of synchronocity out there, but i threw Varèse&#8217;s quote into google and find a vid, and sure enough, it&#8217;s FZ mentioning pitchforks.  With what appears to be dutch subtitles.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMBNdDs-q4E" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMBNdDs-q4E</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kelson</title>
		<link>http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10101</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 03:55:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10101</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;"The present-day composer refuses to die!" -Edgard Varèse&lt;/em&gt;

Be they pitchforks or harps or SF writers or other musicians of various and sundry sorts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;The present-day composer refuses to die!&#8221; -Edgard Varèse</em></p>
<p>Be they pitchforks or harps or SF writers or other musicians of various and sundry sorts.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10096</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 21:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10096</guid>
		<description>Viva Rudy!
  Down with mundane SF!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Viva Rudy!<br />
  Down with mundane SF!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve H</title>
		<link>http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10090</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:50:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10090</guid>
		<description>Rudy, that wasn't a writer, it was the editor of SPY magazine. He and BS were separated at birth, but have a happy reunion every time bean dip is served. I bet with a little searching you could find the wiki article he cribbed to drop names like Edward Everett Hale until he got to his buddy Crichton. The point of the article seems to be that people who write SF don't even bother to wear thongs and Spock ears and he's not down with that. Actually, last time I looked, SPY was dead and SF was doing fine (didja notice that EVERY new tv show for Fall is either SF or fantasy?).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rudy, that wasn&#8217;t a writer, it was the editor of SPY magazine. He and BS were separated at birth, but have a happy reunion every time bean dip is served. I bet with a little searching you could find the wiki article he cribbed to drop names like Edward Everett Hale until he got to his buddy Crichton. The point of the article seems to be that people who write SF don&#8217;t even bother to wear thongs and Spock ears and he&#8217;s not down with that. Actually, last time I looked, SPY was dead and SF was doing fine (didja notice that EVERY new tv show for Fall is either SF or fantasy?).</p>
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		<title>By: Rudy</title>
		<link>http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10089</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10089</guid>
		<description>New outrage: &lt;em&gt;Discover&lt;/em&gt; mag attacks SF!

It's an article saying &lt;a href="http://discovermagazine.com/2007/aug/blinded-by-science" target="blank" rel="nofollow"&gt;SF is obsolete &lt;/a&gt;and "has suddenly and entirely ceased to matter."

Imagine my fury!

The essay is lame BS by a professional pontificator who doesn't actually read SF---other than Michael Crichton.

He went to a SFWA gathering, got creeped out by our looks and the cheap venue (generic hotel room with bean dip buffet) and he decided the field is dead.

His reasoning:  (a) SF is for proposing ideas about the future in fictional form, (b) fiction doesn't matter anymore, as people prefer putting their opinions into pontificating essays and blogs, (c) our technology is changing so fast that predicting the future is impossible.

Rebuttal: (a) SF is an ecstatic visionary art form akin to surrealism and the primary goal is to understand the present, (b) independent art is more important than ever as a last stand against psychic McDonaldsization, (c) in the face of change, we need wild and demented SF as the best possible way for conceptualizing what's happening around us.

Shorter rebuttal.  The guy is saying "I don't read SF anymore, therefore it doesn't matter."

Still shorter and non-vocal: &lt;em&gt;The Finger&lt;/em&gt;, followed by turning my back and walking away.

I don't think the &lt;em&gt;Discover&lt;/em&gt; attack bears directly on the to-Mundane-or-not-to-Mundane discussion, though.  Either camp could argue that their approach is the most likely to produce SF likely to stem the abuse by morons like the &lt;em&gt;Discover &lt;/em&gt;essayist.  I'd say, let's all keep writing SF any old way!  Solidarity against the tyranny of consensus reality!

SF isn't dying.  It's only just starting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>New outrage: <em>Discover</em> mag attacks SF!</p>
<p>It&#8217;s an article saying <a href="http://discovermagazine.com/2007/aug/blinded-by-science" target="blank" rel="nofollow">SF is obsolete </a>and &#8220;has suddenly and entirely ceased to matter.&#8221;</p>
<p>Imagine my fury!</p>
<p>The essay is lame BS by a professional pontificator who doesn&#8217;t actually read SF&#8212;other than Michael Crichton.</p>
<p>He went to a SFWA gathering, got creeped out by our looks and the cheap venue (generic hotel room with bean dip buffet) and he decided the field is dead.</p>
<p>His reasoning:  (a) SF is for proposing ideas about the future in fictional form, (b) fiction doesn&#8217;t matter anymore, as people prefer putting their opinions into pontificating essays and blogs, (c) our technology is changing so fast that predicting the future is impossible.</p>
<p>Rebuttal: (a) SF is an ecstatic visionary art form akin to surrealism and the primary goal is to understand the present, (b) independent art is more important than ever as a last stand against psychic McDonaldsization, (c) in the face of change, we need wild and demented SF as the best possible way for conceptualizing what&#8217;s happening around us.</p>
<p>Shorter rebuttal.  The guy is saying &#8220;I don&#8217;t read SF anymore, therefore it doesn&#8217;t matter.&#8221;</p>
<p>Still shorter and non-vocal: <em>The Finger</em>, followed by turning my back and walking away.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the <em>Discover</em> attack bears directly on the to-Mundane-or-not-to-Mundane discussion, though.  Either camp could argue that their approach is the most likely to produce SF likely to stem the abuse by morons like the <em>Discover </em>essayist.  I&#8217;d say, let&#8217;s all keep writing SF any old way!  Solidarity against the tyranny of consensus reality!</p>
<p>SF isn&#8217;t dying.  It&#8217;s only just starting.</p>
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		<title>By: Rudy</title>
		<link>http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10068</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:03:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10068</guid>
		<description>Julian, that's the most cogent defense of Mundane SF that I've seen.  Point taken.

I think I myself prefer writing escape literature.  And I feel I am taking care to make NEW kinds of Buddha statues.

I don't view it solely as escape, though.  As I discussed in my own manifesto years ago, "The Transrealist Manifesto," I view the SF tropes as tools for delving into the human psyche.  Objective correlatives for archetypal truths.  (You can find the Transrealist Manifesto on my &lt;a href="http://www.rudyrucker.com/writing/" target="blank" rel="nofollow"&gt;Writing &lt;/a&gt;page.)

The really likely and bummer futures just aren't something I want to think about or write about.  My sense is that all the news I hear is already about those things, and I do, yes, want to escape from it.  I always have a sense that bad news is a way for the government to control me by frightening me.  Like the popes with Hell, or Bush with terrorism, but on a continuing perennial day to day scale.  My sense is always that there is so much more to day to day reality than newspaper topics.

But I grant that it could be well worth while for some SF-trained authors to go there.  And hopefully come up with something wonderful and surprising.  Not just more bad news.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julian, that&#8217;s the most cogent defense of Mundane SF that I&#8217;ve seen.  Point taken.</p>
<p>I think I myself prefer writing escape literature.  And I feel I am taking care to make NEW kinds of Buddha statues.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t view it solely as escape, though.  As I discussed in my own manifesto years ago, &#8220;The Transrealist Manifesto,&#8221; I view the SF tropes as tools for delving into the human psyche.  Objective correlatives for archetypal truths.  (You can find the Transrealist Manifesto on my <a href="http://www.rudyrucker.com/writing/" target="blank" rel="nofollow">Writing </a>page.)</p>
<p>The really likely and bummer futures just aren&#8217;t something I want to think about or write about.  My sense is that all the news I hear is already about those things, and I do, yes, want to escape from it.  I always have a sense that bad news is a way for the government to control me by frightening me.  Like the popes with Hell, or Bush with terrorism, but on a continuing perennial day to day scale.  My sense is always that there is so much more to day to day reality than newspaper topics.</p>
<p>But I grant that it could be well worth while for some SF-trained authors to go there.  And hopefully come up with something wonderful and surprising.  Not just more bad news.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Todd</title>
		<link>http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10062</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/2007/07/15/on-mundane-sf/#comment-10062</guid>
		<description>I once went to the national museum in Bankok.  They had a lot of statues in bronze and stone and brick, all different sizes.  After the fourth room it began to dawn on me that every single, hand-made statue sourced from all corners of Thailand over the centuries was of the Buddha in one of three different postures.  

Now, I am sure the artists and craftsmen and devotees could see the subtle variations and style of the one entity worthy of building a statue of.  But to my foreign eyes, there is so much else.  If I had been king of Thailand I would have passed a law that for one week a year all artists had to make statues that were not of the Buddha.  Wouldn't that have been something?  

To me, so much SF looks like those Buddha statues.  Repetitive rehashing of the same themes in a limited number of ways, subtle variations that are of no consequence to an outsider.  Why not broadly categorize what's being done, and demand something else for one week a year?  

What's being done is escaping.  Consistently, SF is about breaking physical laws, getting saved by aliens, downloading our brains into cyberspace, in order to avoid the future that Science tells us is likely to occur.  

There is undoubtedly a big void in the area.  Stories in which the future comes and big things happen, and there is no lifeboat which lets us sneak away unscathed.  The popular Science Fact books are at this place (such as Jared Diamond's), but there's little fiction present.  

Now, you can either spawn off a tiny off-shoot of SF to occupy the space, or you can leave it empty for some dumb literary mainstream author to make his seminal mark there.  

Which would you rather happen?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I once went to the national museum in Bankok.  They had a lot of statues in bronze and stone and brick, all different sizes.  After the fourth room it began to dawn on me that every single, hand-made statue sourced from all corners of Thailand over the centuries was of the Buddha in one of three different postures.  </p>
<p>Now, I am sure the artists and craftsmen and devotees could see the subtle variations and style of the one entity worthy of building a statue of.  But to my foreign eyes, there is so much else.  If I had been king of Thailand I would have passed a law that for one week a year all artists had to make statues that were not of the Buddha.  Wouldn&#8217;t that have been something?  </p>
<p>To me, so much SF looks like those Buddha statues.  Repetitive rehashing of the same themes in a limited number of ways, subtle variations that are of no consequence to an outsider.  Why not broadly categorize what&#8217;s being done, and demand something else for one week a year?  </p>
<p>What&#8217;s being done is escaping.  Consistently, SF is about breaking physical laws, getting saved by aliens, downloading our brains into cyberspace, in order to avoid the future that Science tells us is likely to occur.  </p>
<p>There is undoubtedly a big void in the area.  Stories in which the future comes and big things happen, and there is no lifeboat which lets us sneak away unscathed.  The popular Science Fact books are at this place (such as Jared Diamond&#8217;s), but there&#8217;s little fiction present.  </p>
<p>Now, you can either spawn off a tiny off-shoot of SF to occupy the space, or you can leave it empty for some dumb literary mainstream author to make his seminal mark there.  </p>
<p>Which would you rather happen?</p>
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